Mallender Insights

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Economic Impact. Today, it's June 11th, 2025 and as usual, I am with our Chief Economist, Stéfane Marion. Hello, Stéfane, a little bit different today, a lot of structural change and we want to talk about it.

Well, we hope to keep people interested, but you're absolutely right that we'll mix a bunch of stuff that's cyclical versus structural, which makes the story more interesting, I think. But let's start with the cyclical dynamics that we've seen, we're seeing in U.S. so, well, we've said many months ago that, maybe US corporations would start reacting negatively to the uncertainty created by the tariff structure in the U.S.. And what we've seen in the latest jobs report in the U.S. is that corporations are still hiring if you look at the redline Denis, but they're not hiring full time. So, they're not committing their capital full time, whether it's human capital or physical capital, not investing right now. So, it's not just Canadian corporations that are struggling to understand the new dynamics, but we're seeing it in the jobs report. So, this sets the stage for slower growth in the U.S. in the second half of this year.

This is what you call uncertainty for the future. And you don't want to have a full-time employee, you prefer to have a part-time employee that, if things are going bad, you know, it's easier to lay off people.

You don't want to commit until you actually understand what your business model will be like say the next six months or next year.

But the equity market is doing well, not new high, but despite of that, you know there's good news.

So, let's put things in perspective. You're right, not doing badly in recent weeks. It's a recovery, but U.S. stock market is one of the only ones that's not back to its previous highs. So, there's still this level of uncertainty created by, there's high valuation in the U.S., we're talking about structural adjustment to the supply chain. Companies are not committing capital right now. So, the U.S. market is coming back, don't get me wrong, but it's one of the few markets that's not back to an all-time high.

Yeah, but that performance is probably only linked because of U.S. investors. Because when you look at the greenback or the U.S. dollar, it's not doing well at all and keeps going down.

So, it's been driven by U.S. investors, the recovery, because foreign investors, you're absolutely right, they're still shunning U.S. assets, whether it's the U.S. bond market or U.S. equity markets. It's not that they're not buying, but they're not buying as aggressively. And that's clearly apparent on the exchange rate in the U.S., which is struggling this quarter. It's one of the largest depreciations in over five years, down 3.5%. So, it means central banks are less active in buying U.S. assets, but also private investors. So that's, you're absolutely right, you know, the perception of U.S. investors versus U.S. economy explains why the U.S. stock market has struggled so far this year.

Yeah. And if you go up north in Canada, the story is totally different. Our stock market is at a new high right now.
Despite the fact that we have a 7% unemployment rate now and which is a massive difference with the U.S. at 4.2%. The stock market in Canada is at new highs. And Denis, I think that's a reflection that everybody understands that we are challenged cyclically right now with the uncertainty on tariffs. But at the same time, what we understand also is, since the federal election, the Prime Minister, well the throne speech was actually read by King Charles. But there's a commitment from the federal government to focus on the Canadian economy on the scale that we haven't seen in many, many years. So, people are saying, well, if I don't really like U.S. assets, I don't understand. I clearly understand that the federal government in Canada wants to be pro-growth. And that's, you know, there's, you know, there's this wind of optimism that is blowing north of the border.

And for this time around, it's not just oil and gas that's doing well, it's a bit widespread in the economy.

Yeah, so when we saw the stock market doing very well in 2000, it was mostly the energy sector. But, with this commitment of the federal government to reindustrialize the nation, that means, you know, more corporate lending, attracting capital, we're open for business. Then obviously, under these circumstances, you can understand that, you know, the financials of the Canadian banks are at a new all-time high. Having said that, it's still not a one trick pony with only the banks. We have industrials doing well, materials, consumer discretionary. People believe that there will be new structural policies deployed in Canada to close the valuation gap that we've endured with the U.S. for over a decade. So again, Denis, this is a structural change. Understand, we are cyclically challenged. Let's be careful in the months ahead. But structurally, there's something different happening in Canada. That's how powerful this can be when policymakers decide to become pro-growth.

Yeah, and the consequences of that, Canadian dollar is going higher because now you have probably Canadian investors, but foreign investors buying in Canada.

Well Denis, that's the flip side. I think if people are interested in your assets, the currency will do well. So, the Canadian dollar's appreciating about the most in four years. So, we were concerned earlier this year about Canadian dollar depreciation. But with the throne speech that we saw, the commitment to be pro-growth for the Canadian economy, these are words until now, but maybe the actions will speak for themselves in the next few quarters, but this is very powerful and it's driving a stronger Canadian dollar. So, might be a source of frustration for exporters, but clearly there's demand and that's an improvement in our terms of trade right now.

And you know, on the same path, Mr. Carney says that I want to invest more money in defense and, and that's kind of good military expenses because you have to build the economy around that. But it's not only building tanks, and it's helping the whole economy.

So, the commitment is to grow the economy, but at the same time to be an active participant within NATO because right now we have the lowest military expenditure in the G7, which means that we are struggling as a nation. Now, the commitment to increase our military complex is very, very important. So, to me, that speaks volumes to the government's commitment to do so. But if you do so, and with a Buy Canada Act, all of a sudden, I have more leeways to improve our industrial structure.

And the next slide will show that we need to invest in our economy. You know, you've been saying that for months and years now. And when you compare ourselves, there's a lot to do.

Oh, Denis, you know, on manufacturing, we've been atrophying our manufacturing so much that, you know, now for the first time ever, our manufacturing sector is smaller than Ireland, which is a population of 5,000,000. So, we need to do a lot better there. And I think that I can be hopeful that with this new procurement system, we can actually kick start manufacturing, and that means reindustrializing our nation.

And you've been discussing that in the past. You know, there's so much regulation in Canada. But once again, the next slide, you know, speak by themself, we need to do something.

It's a big slide, but all you need to know, Denis, is that the federal government is responsible for 320,000 regulations, in manufacturing alone at 110,000. So, it doesn't cost much for the federal government to show the example and say, in order to deploy private capital in Canada, I'll make it easier. I will slash the regulatory requirements that we have, which are one of, some of the most punitive in the industrialized world.

And that's excluding provincials and municipalities.

No provinces, no municipalities on that. So, but if the federal government shows the example, all of a sudden, Canada becomes more investable. So, to me, that's a structural change that would be extremely conducive to this growth and evaluations, the discount that we've been dealing with for the past decade can go away. This is, you know, structurally speaking, as I said, I mean, these are probably the most, the best news we've had from Ottawa. If we can tackle regulations as well as the other commitment that you have, I can only be more optimistic for our country going forward.

Well, Stéfane, this is a change from the past few months and not only few years about Canada, but it's the first time we were seeing your optimism about Canada. And it seems that also, you know, the investors and the foreign investors are, then more to come I believe.

The next challenge Denis is the upcoming G7 meeting. If Mr. Trump, if Mr. Carney can show that he gets along with Mr. Trump and then it looks like we can commit to a trade agreement in the next few quarters, I think people will become even more interested in Canada. So, you know, the words have been put out there. Now we need to see the actions and if there's a commitment to come up with these actions and after G7 meetings, all of these things could make us even more positive for Canada so hopefully when we see each other later this summer, we'll have better news for the Canadian economy. But things look up right now despite the fact that we are cyclically challenged, there's good news, structurally speaking.

Well, thank you very much, Stéfane. Thank you all for listening to us and we'll see you in a few weeks. Thank you.

Hello everyone. Welcome to Economic Impact. Today is May 2nd, 2025 and as usual, I am with our Chief Economist, Stéfane Marion. Hello, Stéfane.

Hello, Denis. It's been only two weeks since we saw each other, but it's been volatile in markets and actually, outside the U.S., people remain pretty confident. So every asset class, pretty much every asset class is up year to date now. It's a big change from early April, except one.

Except one.

Except one, which one?

South of the border.

It's U.S. equities, are still down 8% year to date. Still the uncertainty about the global economy, and particularly what the White House wants to do with this whole tariff structure.

And talking about tariffs, where are they now because they move quite a lot. The last time we were around 32% and now I think we're a little bit down, but not as much as probably we would hope.

I can tell you that, in my entire career, I've never seen tariffs move like that or moves like that. We went from 2 to 5 to 10 to 7 to 36 to 24. Now we stand at 23% as of today. So down from 26%, which was where we were just two weeks ago, but still overly punitive for the U.S. economy. So, I think that this needs to be settled. Everybody thinks it will come down, but how soon will they come down will dictate the U.S. economic performance and the performance of U.S. profits.

Yeah, because those tariffs are still pretty high, now we're starting to talk more about stagflation. And the ISM showed that inflation expected is high, but productivity is down too at the same time, which is not good.

Yeah, many corporations don't even provide guidance right now because they don't know what the tariff structure will be just in the next few weeks. So, what you see in the U.S., GDP was negative in Q1 for the first time in over three years. In manufacturing, production is down, which echoes what we saw on GDP. But notice Denis, the red line, prices are up. That could squeeze your profit margins. You're selling less and your input prices are rising. So, will you be able to sustain your earnings guidance under these circumstances? People don't know. Corporations don't know, they're dropping earnings guidance. And unlike the pandemic episode, if you want, the government is not sending cheques to households to allow prices to be fully reflected on the CPI. So, this means uncertainty about profit margins and profit growth and obviously the performance of the S&P 500.

Yeah, today we had the employment numbers in the United States. Quite stable, despite everything we saw the past few weeks.
And the White House was complacent and they're saying that this is the proof that tariffs are not hurting the U.S. economy. I think we have to be careful with that assessment Denis because historically, corporations don't layoff people as soon as production comes down. They wait a few months to say, is it improving or not? So, what we're seeing in the U.S. is, yes, the unemployment rate has been stable since the second half of last year, but will it be the same in the next few months? I would venture to say that, if production does not pick up, and I'm not so sure it will pick up, the unemployment rate is likely to go up in the second half of this year. Now, from the Federal Reserve perspective, can you really cut interest rates if inflation is still rising? That's a big unknown. The market is very aggressive right now, pricing in four rate cuts for the Federal Reserve. But if it's a stagflationary component to U.S. economic growth they won't be able to cut rates as aggressively, and that could fragilize the stock market. So, this is very important. In the next few months, will the U.S. see rising unemployment rates? And that will be the critical element that will allow the president to be a lot less aggressive on tariffs.

Yeah, but he was happy this morning for sure.

Yes, but that means he can remain aggressive on tariffs, so I want him to be less aggressive.

Which is bad for that number.

So, exactly. So, the unemployment rate will be critical in the next few months.

If we come back in Canada. In Canada, you know, we had also the GDP number. GDP number is positive, you know, compared to the U.S., which was negative, but it has a bad trend right now.

So, yes. So, we're not going to be down on growth in Q1. So that's great news when you consider that. However, so we have positive growth, lackluster growth, you know, maybe 1.5%. But notice Denis that population is going at 2.8%. And this is the issue from a Canadian perspective: the blue line is supposed to grow faster than the red line, not the other way around. So, this is a critical development that needs to be addressed by our politician. We just had an election in Canada. We have a new Prime Minister that said that, you know the economy is a priority for him, so we need to fix this. Absolutely. This is not normal. We need to put policies in place that will foster an environment where the blue line grows faster than the red line.

And then, you know, talking about that, we need to talk about investment because at some point, you know, we still have that lag between the U.S. and Canada in terms of business investment, and that has to change.

So we need.

Mr. Carney has to tackle that one.

So basically, what you're telling me, we need to improve productivity and we can't just grow on population growth. And that means we need to bring business investment. I think you're right on that one. You're absolutely right on that one. And we haven't had, you know, business investment that has been stable or stagnant for the past decade. And that's unprecedented in Canadian history. So, the U.S., you know, business investment is more than doubled over in the U.S. over that period. So, this is the critical element. This needs to be, this has to be a priority for Mr. Carney. So he won't be staying home very long. So, this is a priority.

He's going to the White House next week.

You're right. So that's number one. So, in order to grow business investment, you need to attract or retain investment in this country or attract foreign direct investment in Canada. So, I need visibility on my access to the U.S. market. So that's point number one. You're absolutely right. The other one that we spoke too often is domestically, we need to abolish these interprovincial trade barriers in order to foster East-West production or trade.

Yeah, and we have to react on that because we keep talking about it, but we haven't seen anything yet that is coming and saying we drop that. We drop that. No, it's just words right now. And election.

You're right. And with the currency that continues to appreciate. So basically the Canadian dollar is appreciated more than tariffs have increased on Canada. So it doesn't really help our businesses. So not only do we not know if we have market access to U.S., the currency is appreciating, which is not necessarily great for earnings. So, this needs to be settled, and if the currency appreciates, why don't we show a little bit more, let's be a little bit more pragmatic. Let's reduce the regulatory environment because, you know, the Prime Minister says we need to spend more to invest more in the country, but it won't help if you have this very prohibitive regulatory environment that needs to be tackled. And, corporate income taxes as well as energy policies is a big unknown. So, these are all priorities that need to be addressed. Unfortunately, you don't have much time. So that needs to be addressed over the next three to six months.

Yeah. And we know that corporations will probably go South of the border because of everything going on right now. They want to produce product there to get access to that big market. Then having those foreigners coming to Canada, we're going to be, or we're going to need to be very, very attractive. Then he mentioned it, fiscality, you know, regulation, we need to do that fast. And you said it, Mr. Carney, will have a big agenda in the coming weeks if we want to see that curve moving up for the first time since a long period of time.

You're right that you can't coast just business investment. You know, the private sector just with government spending. It's more than that. It's the overall environment, the business environment. Are you business-friendly? Are you open for business or only so? So, yes, the priority is, as you said, renegotiate USMCA and tackle all the regulatory environment that reduces business investment in this country. And who knows Denis, if you do all this, I'm optimistic that they would reduce the valuation gap between the S&P TSX and the S&P 500. I think there's hope to be optimistic provided that the Prime Minister acts swiftly on all of these fronts.

So what do we do as investors? You know, we've been very prudent. We ask people to be very prudent, rightly so. Now we're seeing in some assets are doing better except the U.S., but we know that never good to short U.S. because that economy is very resilient.

You're absolutely right. However, I would say that there's probably a, you know, investors are probably looking at, is it normal to deploy so much capital in the U.S. if I have alternatives elsewhere? So, I think Europe is starting to provide an alternative. I want Canada to provide an alternative. So, from a relative performance standpoint, I still think that the U.S. is likely to underperform unless Mr. Trump backs down very aggressively on tariffs. So, but having said this, Denis, we have yet to see this happen. So, for that reason, still prudent in terms of our asset mix at this point in time.

Good. Thank you, Stéfane. Thank you to all of you to listening to us. And above all, don't miss our next meeting next June. Thank you.